Sonics Block

[Rocky]

"You and aar overvalue your players, and undervalue what it takes to get the elite superstars that don't actually get traded, apparently. He offered Diaw, Pau, and Terry (I assume, since that is what he sent to me five minutes after I got Kobe) for Kobe, and then said it is "much better" (or something along those lines) than my offer of Manu/Toine/POR 2006. His offer doesn't even approach what I gave, and I think 95% of the league would agree with that. I wouldn't have done his offer for Manu had he offered, because Manu got the +10 potential upgrade and just averaged 26 points per game on a team that won 49 games. His Pau offer, to me, is more suitable for a tier 2 or 3 player, not the elite superstars. "

Just to clarify, I meant to imply that Manu was in the tier 2 group, someone who his Pau offer could potentially net (although I wouldn't accept it), not in the superstar group. Meaningless correction, but it came across as something other than what I meant.

[Ebener 12]

I think Terry's just a guy with pretty ratings, didn't have that real A potential, the dude's 26. And the #10 didn't look like it possessed great value at the time, wasn't a stand out guy at all IMO. I feel the Nets definitely gave a better offer.

[A2J]

I was saying that in the Big Ben deal, you seemed to value J-Rich's ability to eventually become a superstar moreso than Desmond's current production as a superstar. And if you don't think he's a superstar, that's fine. But he definitely puts up superstar numbers, and he's improved every TC that I've been in the league, and he's on one of the best value contracts in the league as well. Whereas in the T-Mac offer, you seem to value his current production as a superstar moreso than Terry, Pau and the #10 selection in the draft's abilities to eventually become superstars.

Which is a fairly direct comparison I felt.

Ah, whether or not Spence rips a pick is inconsequential. J-Rich didn't produce very well last year. His ratings are unremarkable and he didn't have a very good TC. He had shown nothing outside of being the #2 pick that would give him any sort of value, in my eyes. Personally, if I had J-Rich on my team, and you told me that when he was 25 he would have ratings of B+ C+ C B+ C and be putting up 25, 7 and 3 on 48% from the field, and he would be locked into a four year contract that never rose above 7 mil ... I'd see that as a pretty much best case scenario for him. Which is why Mason held significantly more value than J-Rich even before this TC where J-Rich shit the bed and Mason continued to improve.

I still think that's a solid offer for TMac. Pau is one of the best young bigs in the league. Terry is a young and consistently improving PG. Diaw is an intriguing role player. And the #10 pick allows more youth to be added. If we're talking about a superstar worth offer, that's exactly what I'm looking for - a future potential superstar and 2 or 3 more useful pieces. Which is why it's a decent offer in my eyes.

[Phoenix Phil]

Diaw was the 10th pick... it wasn't #10 and Diaw. Regardless that offer isn't good at all. Pau isn't looking like anything spectacular (solid, 18/8 guy), Terry's solid but he doesn't make up the difference at all. Diaw is a crapshoot. Also, if I'm trading a superstar like T-Mac, I expect to get beyond great value, not just exceptional value. Otherwise it's not worth it.

I agree with your argument on Mason and Richardson. However I probably wouldn't trade Big Ben for your offer unless I was absolute desperate for scoring.

[A2J]

Ah, well that changes it a little. Yeah, I thought it was like Pau, 2 prospects and a lotto, that's a slightly worse offer. And I'm not saying I would've taken it (in most situations, I would never trade a guy like TMac if I had him on my roster) but before this TC when Pau was average, he was looking pretty damn incredible, at least from my point of view, and that offer isn't as terrible as Mark is making it out to be.

I'm cool with my Big Ben deal being turned down, I just thought trading him straight up for J-Rich wasn't great, and thought it was weird when Mark said that my offer of Dez, Collins and 2 picks wasn't even close to the same value as J-Rich alone. Honestly? I think Big Ben is WAY more valuable than either of those offers. I would never trade a big guy with A+ defence for a guard unless he was fucking stacked, and I don't see either offer having that. I just think that Dez + a decent big + 2 firsts is more valuable than J-Rich.

[A2J]

Oh and just to confirm, that offer never got to cmj because he traded Ben like half an hour before I sent it to him. My original offer was a major lowball to try and sense value and see if I could get a steal.

[Ebener 12]

I would have took Mason over JRich alone, or at least very close pre-TC. JRich has never impressed me, and his ratings even before this TC were shit.

[aar]

Updated with new ratings...

[Rocky]

"I was saying that in the Big Ben deal, you seemed to value J-Rich's ability to eventually become a superstar moreso than Desmond's current production as a superstar. And if you don't think he's a superstar, that's fine. But he definitely puts up superstar numbers, and he's improved every TC that I've been in the league, and he's on one of the best value contracts in the league as well. Whereas in the T-Mac offer, you seem to value his current production as a superstar moreso than Terry, Pau and the #10 selection in the draft's abilities to eventually become superstars.

Which is a fairly direct comparison I felt."

It's a huge stretch as a comparison. To me, Mason's potential is done, and J-Rich still has a lot. I could easily be wrong about J-Rich. I don't love the guy at all, I just don't think Desmond is a superstar. But, you can't look at the two deals and say that J-Rich + Pau/Terry/Diaw are the 'potential' halves of the trade, while Desmond + T-Mac are 'established superstar' sides of the deal. It isn't the same, because with T-Mac, you're not taking into account his immense potential. He is 24 years old. He had A potential when we started this talk. There are no direct comparisons when you're dealing with a guy like T-Mac and then a guy like Desmond. It's not the same at all.

"Ah, whether or not Spence rips a pick is inconsequential."

You're completely wrong about that. I'd say everyone tries to pick something up in what Spence says about a prospect, and where they are taken etc.

"J-Rich didn't produce very well last year. His ratings are unremarkable and he didn't have a very good TC. He had shown nothing outside of being the #2 pick that would give him any sort of value, in my eyes."

You're overlooking the fact that being the #2 pick should, in theory, give him potential. With Mason, CJ would know what he is getting. If he wanted that, he would have just kept Ben, no? With J-Rich, he'd be taking on the potential for a superstar. That isn't to say that he was going to pan out, but the potential was there. If he wanted to deal Ben for a re-tooling package, he probably wouldn't have dealt him at all.

"I still think that's a solid offer for TMac. Pau is one of the best young bigs in the league. Terry is a young and consistently improving PG. Diaw is an intriguing role player. And the #10 pick allows more youth to be added. If we're talking about a superstar worth offer, that's exactly what I'm looking for - a future potential superstar and 2 or 3 more useful pieces. Which is why it's a decent offer in my eyes."

I don't know where you're getting the #10 pick from, as that was Diaw, but it still doesn't change much. The whole problem with arguing this is you have used the word superstar for T-Mac, Desmond (production), and Pau (future, potential). If you want to throw the word out there, fine, but there are different grades of superstar, and T-Mac blows their grades away. Pau was never getting to T-Mac level, and the other guys don't make up for it, because Diaw is mediocre at best and Terry is a good PG. Even now, you use the word "decent" to describe the offer. Is a decent offer getting a superstar? No, it's going to get rejected every time. I took objection to him saying that his offer was much better than my Kobe offer, because I just see a huge amount of overvaluing of players if that package approached the one I offered.

[Rocky]

aar, I like Campbell and Foster quite a bit, what's the price?

[aar]

mark said:

aar, I like Campbell and Foster quite a bit, what's the price?

I like Travis Best

I'd do Foster for Best if it works

I don't have any roster space

[A2J]

I wasn't directly comparing Desmond and TMac, I was comparing the two deals. I consider Pau + Terry + Diaw to have much more value as prospects than J-Rich alone, just as I see TMac as being a much better player than Desmond. The comparison is in the form of players, in one case, established talent (TMac and Des) and in other, potential talent (J-Rich, Pau, Terry, Diaw). So we can write that off as a misinterpretation.

Keep scouring draft notes and Spence's comments on players, I'm going to keep watching guys develop and keeping an eye on their production. I trust FBB more than I trust Spence. No offense Spencer.

What gives a player potential is seeing them improve in TC. The game doesn't know that J-Rich was going to be picked second. That's a human decision. In theory, the guy who gets picked at #2 should have potential. But in theory, a guy with potential will improve in his first TC, and a guy who will be an effective player will produce above his ratings. J-Rich did neither of those things. Him being the #2 pick is meaningless.

And I already stated that if I had Ben, I wouldn't have taken my offer either. But I certainly would've taken it before trading for J-Rich. I'll say it one more time - if J-Rich has good TCs and benefits from Reward Camps, after what happened in his first TC and season, I'd be stoked if he turned into Dez by the end of his rookie contract. Desmond's ratings to a lesser extent and his numbers to a far greater extent are exactly what you want J-Rich to eventually do for your team.

And yes, this is pointless arguing about. But it's better than essays and I like to argue, so ... you're still wrong. And J-Rich's TC has already proven that for me. He did in TC what it was fair to expect from him considering his first season. It shouldn't be surprising.