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Post by Funky George! on Sept 24, 2008 21:31:43 GMT -5
Again, every argument against Reggie Bush his his "rushing" stat. Reggie Bush is a better player than Adrian Peterson. Adrian Peterson is a better running back than Reggie Bush. Take that for however you want, but it's the absolute truth. Reggie Bush can do so many things most RBs can't. You can line him up anywhere on the field and create mis-matches. He returns kicks, punts, etc. Silly. I've never said Bush isn't a good football player. That would be ridiculous. He's been really impressive for his entire career as far as I'm concerned, but the fact is, he isn't a great ball carrier at all. He needs space and that's why he's better used on returns and receptions. But you're gonna suggest he's a better player than AP? That's ridiculous. I seriously doubt that you understand the importance of a good running back in football at this point. AP is a much better player than Bush. You take the spectacular RB over the do-it-all any day. Shit, even if he were a primary WR AND a great returner, I'd take the back.
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Post by cjmjones008 on Sept 24, 2008 21:40:30 GMT -5
AP is definitely a better player than Reggie
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Post by duceisinmyheart on Sept 24, 2008 21:55:21 GMT -5
Reggie Bush can single-handedly win games for New Orleans and has.
AP has rushed for over 150 yards in numerous games but is not able to pull the win out for the team.
That's my argument.
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GMGreggor
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Post by GMGreggor on Sept 24, 2008 22:12:01 GMT -5
Reggie Bush can single-handedly win games for New Orleans and has. AP has rushed for over 150 yards in numerous games but is not able to pull the win out for the team. That's my argument. Name the games Bush has singlehandedly won. Without AP that Minny team is a bottom 10 team at best. Without Bush the Saints are still a wildcard team probably. Nuff siad.
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Post by duceisinmyheart on Sept 24, 2008 22:22:10 GMT -5
try week 1 against my Bucs. Bucs couldn't stop him at all.
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Post by Phoenix Phil on Sept 24, 2008 22:24:26 GMT -5
I don't think many people expected Reggie Bush to be a franchise back. They expected him to be a playmaker who could take any screen, any pass in the flat, or kick return for a TD. He has developed into this and is going to get better. 1 Mario Williams DE North Carolina State Houston Texans 2 Reggie Bush RB USC New Orleans Saints 3 Vince Young QB Texas Tennessee Titans 4 D'Brickashaw Ferguson T Virginia New York Jets 5 A.J. Hawk OLB Ohio State Green Bay Packers 6 Vernon Davis TE Maryland San Francisco 49ers 7 Michael Huff SS Texas Oakland Raiders 8 Donte Whitner SS Ohio State Buffalo Bills 9 Ernie Sims OLB Florida State Detroit Lions 10 Matt Leinart QB USC Arizona Cardinals Still not worth the #2 pick? In hindsight it's easy to say that but many DID expect him to be a franchise back. All hopes not lost and he wasn't going to be a 250-300 carry guy and that he was an all-purpose guy but his ineffectiveness to run between the tackles leaves alot to be desired... I'm sure they were expecting alot more from him in that regard.
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Post by AllStar0608 on Sept 25, 2008 0:49:58 GMT -5
there are the crappers so far. Davis might be better off with Martz there now. He hasnt stayed healthy and they dont throw to him enough right now though.
Huff is terrible. Leinart has been real bad. Vince Young is bad. The rest of the top 10 were pretty good picks.
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Post by duceisinmyheart on Sept 25, 2008 8:42:00 GMT -5
Bush had a good rookie season, if you guys have forgotten. He was never intended to be the Franchise back, blue. He was intended to be the “ying” to Deuce’s “yang.” His sophomore season he was thrust into the main back role, and struggled heavily, as he was NEVER intended to be the “franchise back.” He was also injured towards the end of the season.
Think about it guys, he wasn’t even the main back at USC. There was some monster of a man called Lendale White doing the “dirty work.”
Greg, you really think without Bush New Orleans is a wild-card playoff team? Is that why last season they missed the playoffs with Bush battling injuries?
He’s having a really good season this year because he’s not being used as the main back. Pierre Thomas is handling that job while Deuce is out and is doing a nice job of it. Bush will help New Orleans get back into the playoffs, with out him they’re not a playoff team.
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GMGreggor
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Post by GMGreggor on Sept 25, 2008 8:43:03 GMT -5
I think most people thought Young would have a hard time adapting to the pros.
But there's quite a few guys I'd take over Bush at 2 even now yea.
Hell I might be inclined to take Addai over Bush. I just dont place as much value on what is a 3rd down back/ret specialist type. You can find guys in the 3rd,4th rds that do that very well.
If I take a RB with the 2nd pick I want him to be able to carry the load. That's always been my point. Not a 3rd down specialist type. And I would still take Ferguson over Bush at 2 yep.
Takes OL guys a few yrs to develop. But a great OL is gold. Great OL can make a mediocre back look real good. Whereas a bad OL will make a great back look bad,not to mention the QB.
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GMGreggor
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Post by GMGreggor on Sept 25, 2008 8:45:29 GMT -5
They were struggling last yr before Bush got hurt.
Their defense sucks,that may still haunt them this year. I would take that CB Cromartie over Reggie now too,and a handful of other defenders from that draft yes.
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Post by duceisinmyheart on Sept 25, 2008 8:51:54 GMT -5
Hell I might be inclined to take Addai over Bush. I just dont place as much value on what is a 3rd down back/ret specialist type. You can find guys in the 3rd,4th rds that do that very well. If I take a RB with the 2nd pick I want him to be able to carry the load. That's always been my point. Not a 3rd down specialist type. And I would still take Ferguson over Bush at 2 yep. I still don't understand why you label Bush a "3rd-down specialist." He doesn't have to be in the backfield to be effective. Have you watched any of the Saints games? Honestly, have you? They line-up Bush all over the field. Oh and did I mention he's 3rd in the league in total yards from scrimmage? Trust me, a "3rd-down back" wouldn't be tops in the league in yards from scrimmage. Bush is doing what he was brought in to do, that's all. Stop looking at rushing yards and start looking at everything else he does.
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GMGreggor
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Post by GMGreggor on Sept 25, 2008 9:01:53 GMT -5
He basically does what a 3rd dowb back does that's why. He may not play only on 3rd downs but he is in essence a receiver. And mark my words,his stats will fall back. Once the def coordinators see what they are doing on film they'll negate him,just like they did the first 2 years.
Let me reiterate, I'm not saying he's useless or does'nt have bigplay capability. What I'm saying is for the 2nd pick in the draft I want a guy that is going to be a factor every play.
Whether it's a stud RB running it,QB throwing it or great OL guy blocking. I want to recoup on the tremendous financial commitment I'm making for that guy. I just dont see that with Bush,and to be honest I would'nt take any WR in the top 10 either. Which is basically what Bush is at this point.
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Post by cjmjones008 on Sept 25, 2008 9:06:30 GMT -5
I think most people thought Young would have a hard time adapting to the pros. But there's quite a few guys I'd take over Bush at 2 even now yea. Hell I might be inclined to take Addai over Bush. I just dont place as much value on what is a 3rd down back/ret specialist type. You can find guys in the 3rd,4th rds that do that very well. If I take a RB with the 2nd pick I want him to be able to carry the load. That's always been my point. Not a 3rd down specialist type. And I would still take Ferguson over Bush at 2 yep. Takes OL guys a few yrs to develop. But a great OL is gold. Great OL can make a mediocre back look real good. Whereas a bad OL will make a great back look bad,not to mention the QB. You cant say I would have taken Addai. He was not even being considered at pick 20 so you can't try and say you would have taken him at #2.
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Post by cjmjones008 on Sept 25, 2008 9:07:05 GMT -5
there are the crappers so far. Davis might be better off with Martz there now. He hasnt stayed healthy and they dont throw to him enough right now though. Huff is terrible. Leinart has been real bad. Vince Young is bad. The rest of the top 10 were pretty good picks. Davis sucks. He drops a ton of balls and he fumbles a lot. Huff is descent
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Post by AllStar0608 on Sept 25, 2008 9:08:37 GMT -5
Reggie Bush is WAY more than a 3rd down back lol.
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Post by duceisinmyheart on Sept 25, 2008 9:12:53 GMT -5
He basically does what a 3rd dowb back does that's why. He may not play only on 3rd downs but he is in essence a receiver. And mark my words,his stats will fall back. Once the def coordinators see what they are doing on film they'll negate him,just like they did the first 2 years. Let me reiterate, I'm not saying he's useless or does'nt have bigplay capability. What I'm saying is for the 2nd pick in the draft I want a guy that is going to be a factor every play. Whether it's a stud RB running it,QB throwing it or great OL guy blocking. I want to recoup on the tremendous financial commitment I'm making for that guy. I just dont see that with Bush,and to be honest I would'nt take any WR in the top 10 either. Which is basically what Bush is at this point. So you'd rather have a back who's only ability is to rush with the ball, rather than a guy who can run the ball, catch the ball, return kicks, and create mismatches in the defense? Good thing you're not a GM of any NFL team. I mean when Bush lines up as a wide out he's usually shadowed by the teams best or second-best CB. If you put a safety on him or a LB, they're likely to get burned. He doesn't need to produce any type of stats to be effective for his team, which is why I asked if you have seen any Saints game this season. Edit: and towards your point that you want a player who's effective on every-play, you kind of answered it in favor of Bush, you said "in essence he's like a WR" so that means he can line-up as a WR on 1st, 2nd, 3rd down and so-forth.
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GMGreggor
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Post by GMGreggor on Sept 25, 2008 9:16:18 GMT -5
I think most people thought Young would have a hard time adapting to the pros. But there's quite a few guys I'd take over Bush at 2 even now yea. Hell I might be inclined to take Addai over Bush. I just dont place as much value on what is a 3rd down back/ret specialist type. You can find guys in the 3rd,4th rds that do that very well. If I take a RB with the 2nd pick I want him to be able to carry the load. That's always been my point. Not a 3rd down specialist type. And I would still take Ferguson over Bush at 2 yep. Takes OL guys a few yrs to develop. But a great OL is gold. Great OL can make a mediocre back look real good. Whereas a bad OL will make a great back look bad,not to mention the QB. You cant say I would have taken Addai. He was not even being considered at pick 20 so you can't try and say you would have taken him at #2. That's no more ludicrous than you just posting just the first 10 guys and saying who would you take now. If you're gonna open that door anyone is fair game. Thats a hindsight list. But my point is, Bush is not even the best RB taken in that draft. Not where he was taken. I never had a high opinion for Bush, a guy that cant start on his college team is the 2nd pick in the draft? Just cant see that. But with me it's more a fundamental ideology. If I'm using the 2nd pick in the draft on a RB I want him to be a stud RUNNER. If I want a WR I'd take one lower in the draft/round. I just dont believe in taking WR's high. Thats where you get your QB's,RB's,OLT's,CB's,DL guys that impact games nearly every play. Just my opinion.
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Post by cjmjones008 on Sept 25, 2008 9:52:40 GMT -5
No, I posted the top 10 guys to show you that a lot first round guys (especially top 10) are completely worthless in the NFL. This is because people are drafting on potential and not the football player they are at the time.
If you really want to say you can make a case for Addai going #2 now be my guest, but that is fucking idiotic. I was at the last ever Peach Bowl where Addai had a great game against Miami and his draft stock started really rising from that performance. I remembered thinking if this guy goes to a bottom of round 1 team like the Colts he could be a monster. Since that actually happened I made sure to pick him up in all of my fantasy leagues that year.
Addai is a great runner but he didn't have the background or skill set that Reggie Bush had to be a top 5 pick. He is a good running back but his stats have always been inflated from being on Indy and teams having to worry about the pass.
Since, the Saints are still a wildcard team without Reggie Bush (if they are even one with him). What are the Colts without Addai over the past couple of years? I think about 30 other RB could have been in that backfield and the Colts would have had the same success to this point.
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GMGreggor
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Post by GMGreggor on Sept 25, 2008 11:09:28 GMT -5
No, I posted the top 10 guys to show you that a lot first round guys (especially top 10) are completely worthless in the NFL. This is because people are drafting on potential and not the football player they are at the time. If you really want to say you can make a case for Addai going #2 now be my guest, but that is fucking idiotic. I was at the last ever Peach Bowl where Addai had a great game against Miami and his draft stock started really rising from that performance. I remembered thinking if this guy goes to a bottom of round 1 team like the Colts he could be a monster. Since that actually happened I made sure to pick him up in all of my fantasy leagues that year. Addai is a great runner but he didn't have the background or skill set that Reggie Bush had to be a top 5 pick. He is a good running back but his stats have always been inflated from being on Indy and teams having to worry about the pass. Since, the Saints are still a wildcard team without Reggie Bush (if they are even one with him). What are the Colts without Addai over the past couple of years? I think about 30 other RB could have been in that backfield and the Colts would have had the same success to this point. I did'nt say Addai was a worthy overall#2. I said Bush isnt either. He was overated coming out of college is my whole damn point. Looking at that draft on draft day, not now I'd have taken Ferguson or traded down. I personally never thought Bush was going to be a premier back. What is so hard to understand here? The point is that Bush is not a #2 overall guy. Nor is Addai.AP would be. Bush is a good change of pace back which can be found in late first,second and third rds. of every draft,ala Felix Jones of Dallas this yr. Read what I'm saying.
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Post by duceisinmyheart on Sept 25, 2008 11:20:15 GMT -5
You just compared Felix Jones to Reggie Bush?
LOL
end of discussion
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Post by AllStar0608 on Sept 25, 2008 11:21:08 GMT -5
Bush is doing EXACTLY what i expected and im a bush fan. pre draft i felt Mario should have gone first and post draft that seems to be the right decision. Mario needs some more help around him on D though.
Bush is def. a # 2 overall guy. ANYTIME he touches the ball he can put it in for 6. He is putting up the rushing and receiving yards, while he is also a good returner and most importantly he is putting it in the endzone.
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Post by cjmjones008 on Sept 25, 2008 11:22:08 GMT -5
I can understand more of where Greg is coming from now. You still underrated Bush, but that is because he isn't your type of player. He really fits what the Saints do. If he was on a lot of other teams there is no way he would have been worth that high of a pick or as productive at this point in his career.
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Post by duceisinmyheart on Sept 25, 2008 11:23:24 GMT -5
I can understand more of where Greg is coming from now. You still underrated Bush, but that is because he isn't your type of player. He really fits what the Saints do. If he was on a lot of other teams there is no way he would have been worth that high of a pick or as productive at this point in his career. Jordan, I disagree. Yes, he was a perfect fit for the saints, and still is, but he's a top 5 pick in any draft.
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Post by cjmjones008 on Sept 25, 2008 11:26:47 GMT -5
I would take him in the top 5. I am just saying some teams he wouldn't be worth taking because he doesn't fit their team at all. Most teams would take him anyways and attempt to make adjustments though
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Post by duceisinmyheart on Sept 25, 2008 11:27:53 GMT -5
I would take him in the top 5. I am just saying some teams he wouldn't be worth taking because he doesn't fit their team at all. Most teams would take him anyways and attempt to make adjustments though na yeah you're right... but you can say that about every player though.
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